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	<title>Comments on: Account linking and the F-word</title>
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	<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/</link>
	<description>XML, identity, crafting, and other tangled musings</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 06:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: dale olds&#8217; virtualsoul &#187; Banking on the One True Internet identity system</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-96749</link>
		<dc:creator>dale olds&#8217; virtualsoul &#187; Banking on the One True Internet identity system</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-96749</guid>
		<description>[...]  Linked accounts are also quite useful for some purposes. By linked accounts, I mean a system in which I fill out a form that authorizes one business to take money from one of my accounts when a charge has been incurred. For example, I authorize my dentist to charge my insurance account. Linked accounts are a little heavy on the paperwork side. I have to set up everything and make sure both entities know their role. It&#8217;s easier when I can present a card, like my insurance card, to set up the initial link. I generally don&#8217;t like linked accounts because I prefer knowing when the money is going to leave my account. But there are times I use them and don&#8217;t know a better way to handle some situations, like the dentist. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;]  Linked accounts are also quite useful for some purposes. By linked accounts, I mean a system in which I fill out a form that authorizes one business to take money from one of my accounts when a charge has been incurred. For example, I authorize my dentist to charge my insurance account. Linked accounts are a little heavy on the paperwork side. I have to set up everything and make sure both entities know their role. It&#8217;s easier when I can present a card, like my insurance card, to set up the initial link. I generally don&#8217;t like linked accounts because I prefer knowing when the money is going to leave my account. But there are times I use them and don&#8217;t know a better way to handle some situations, like the dentist. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Eve</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-83141</link>
		<dc:creator>Eve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-83141</guid>
		<description>Hi Eric,

I think you're right that the vast majority of cases involves a service provider that serves in the role of "federatable" identity provider (with a persistent account), and one or more service providers that have local accounts but are always consumers/relying parties of "federated info". It's not impossible to have an entirely transient connection using SAML protocols, but it's obviously of much more limited utility. That's why you'll see, in the SAML Technical Overview, explanations of typical flows for usage of both persistent and transient pseudonyms that assume a persistent account store on the IdP side. I don't think the language "designated IdP" is needed because it's expressed in the protocol flow -- it's the party that does the responding to authentication requests etc. 

BTW, the pseudonyms have to be pairwise unique in order to avoid correlation of your activities by multiple RPs, but one common deployment topology is, of course, a hub (IdP)-and-spoke (several RPs) arrangement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eric,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right that the vast majority of cases involves a service provider that serves in the role of &#8220;federatable&#8221; identity provider (with a persistent account), and one or more service providers that have local accounts but are always consumers/relying parties of &#8220;federated info&#8221;. It&#8217;s not impossible to have an entirely transient connection using SAML protocols, but it&#8217;s obviously of much more limited utility. That&#8217;s why you&#8217;ll see, in the SAML Technical Overview, explanations of typical flows for usage of both persistent and transient pseudonyms that assume a persistent account store on the IdP side. I don&#8217;t think the language &#8220;designated IdP&#8221; is needed because it&#8217;s expressed in the protocol flow &#8212; it&#8217;s the party that does the responding to authentication requests etc. </p>
<p>BTW, the pseudonyms have to be pairwise unique in order to avoid correlation of your activities by multiple RPs, but one common deployment topology is, of course, a hub (IdP)-and-spoke (several RPs) arrangement.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Norman</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-83001</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-83001</guid>
		<description>I think Eve's first comment above about &lt;b&gt;federating identities&lt;/b&gt; (the subltety about persistent accounts) is even more subtle.  I would say that &lt;i&gt;at least one&lt;/i&gt; of the parties must maintain a persistent account.

In lots of non-pairwise federation schemes, this party is called the IdP.  I.e. a user &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; has a persistent account with an IdP.  If that were'nt the case, then an IdP wouldn't maintain records about the user and wouldn't be able to perform its primary function, which is to supply testimory about the accuracy of claims by the user.

In the pairwise schemes that Liberty is fond of, I suppose you could say that one of the parties is the "designated IdP".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Eve&#8217;s first comment above about <b>federating identities</b> (the subltety about persistent accounts) is even more subtle.  I would say that <i>at least one</i> of the parties must maintain a persistent account.</p>
<p>In lots of non-pairwise federation schemes, this party is called the IdP.  I.e. a user <i>always</i> has a persistent account with an IdP.  If that were&#8217;nt the case, then an IdP wouldn&#8217;t maintain records about the user and wouldn&#8217;t be able to perform its primary function, which is to supply testimory about the accuracy of claims by the user.</p>
<p>In the pairwise schemes that Liberty is fond of, I suppose you could say that one of the parties is the &#8220;designated IdP&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: John Cowan</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-82532</link>
		<dc:creator>John Cowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-82532</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the explanation, Eve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the explanation, Eve.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pushing String &#187; SAML news and interfederation</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-82508</link>
		<dc:creator>Pushing String &#187; SAML news and interfederation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-82508</guid>
		<description>[...] Via Tom Scavo comes the news (PDF) that the U.S. E-Authentication program has finished revising its architecture to use SAML&#8217;s latest version, 2.0, &#8220;to better meet the authentication needs of agencies.&#8221; I noticed that this issue of the GSA Federation News newsletter also has an article on interfederation, the higher-order joining together of existing federations, and GSA&#8217;s efforts to figure this out with the Internet2 InCommon folks. This is a really important tool for achieving the ever-wider linking of accounts that I&#8217;ve been blathering about lately. (Ooh, and it&#8217;s another term I can add to my growing F-word lexicon.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Via Tom Scavo comes the news (PDF) that the U.S. E-Authentication program has finished revising its architecture to use SAML&#8217;s latest version, 2.0, &#8220;to better meet the authentication needs of agencies.&#8221; I noticed that this issue of the GSA Federation News newsletter also has an article on interfederation, the higher-order joining together of existing federations, and GSA&#8217;s efforts to figure this out with the Internet2 InCommon folks. This is a really important tool for achieving the ever-wider linking of accounts that I&#8217;ve been blathering about lately. (Ooh, and it&#8217;s another term I can add to my growing F-word lexicon.) [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Eve M.</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-81976</link>
		<dc:creator>Eve M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-81976</guid>
		<description>Yes, identity providers and relying parties and users have to trust each other to a certain point to get anything done. In the case of OpenID, its design center requires that the asserting and relying parties not have had to "meet before" to set up a trust relationship, but real-life deployments do sometimes preconfigure trust with blacklists and whitelists. Parties using protocols like SAML are usually pretty used to having to set up an agreement that specifies the level and nature of trust; the &lt;a href="http://www.incommonfederation.org/join.cfm" rel="nofollow"&gt;InCommon federation&lt;/a&gt; is an excellent example of this. But all this is still a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; more "partial-trust" than the alternative Spock is using, which is to ask you to trust it with something precious: your LinkedIn account name and shared secret. Even if Spock weren't (frankly) a web nobody today, that's the kind of information you should be reluctant to hand out.

Spock today isn't trusting LinkedIn or allowing LinkedIn to trust it; it's impersonating you on LinkedIn to get information you've stored there. If the two parties, and you, worked out an arrangement whereby you could introduce them to each other for the purpose of account linking, and you say it's okay to share (some of) your profile data in one or both directions, each could potentially accept single sign-on assertions containing authentication confirmations and attributes from the other side without knowing your actual authenticator data over there.

Note that, in addition to keeping Spock from knowing your password on LinkedIn, it also decouples the process of using Spock from authentication methods that might involve something more than or different from username/password, like if LinkedIn used a site key for you to authenticate them.

What would be really cool is a generalized "introduction protocol" that sites can make available to users if they want to try and work out account links between any two sites at which they already have accounts (purely local or already linked to some other one). I'd much more readily do that than share all my passwords every which way. If we managed to make the interface easy to understand and use, and give it some level of contractual assurance around what sites are allowed to do with information they rely on (ha! users imposing click-through agreements on the sites they use! yeah, baby), maybe we'd have a true flipping around of who's in charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, identity providers and relying parties and users have to trust each other to a certain point to get anything done. In the case of OpenID, its design center requires that the asserting and relying parties not have had to &#8220;meet before&#8221; to set up a trust relationship, but real-life deployments do sometimes preconfigure trust with blacklists and whitelists. Parties using protocols like SAML are usually pretty used to having to set up an agreement that specifies the level and nature of trust; the <a href="http://www.incommonfederation.org/join.cfm" rel="nofollow">InCommon federation</a> is an excellent example of this. But all this is still a <i>lot</i> more &#8220;partial-trust&#8221; than the alternative Spock is using, which is to ask you to trust it with something precious: your LinkedIn account name and shared secret. Even if Spock weren&#8217;t (frankly) a web nobody today, that&#8217;s the kind of information you should be reluctant to hand out.</p>
<p>Spock today isn&#8217;t trusting LinkedIn or allowing LinkedIn to trust it; it&#8217;s impersonating you on LinkedIn to get information you&#8217;ve stored there. If the two parties, and you, worked out an arrangement whereby you could introduce them to each other for the purpose of account linking, and you say it&#8217;s okay to share (some of) your profile data in one or both directions, each could potentially accept single sign-on assertions containing authentication confirmations and attributes from the other side without knowing your actual authenticator data over there.</p>
<p>Note that, in addition to keeping Spock from knowing your password on LinkedIn, it also decouples the process of using Spock from authentication methods that might involve something more than or different from username/password, like if LinkedIn used a site key for you to authenticate them.</p>
<p>What would be really cool is a generalized &#8220;introduction protocol&#8221; that sites can make available to users if they want to try and work out account links between any two sites at which they already have accounts (purely local or already linked to some other one). I&#8217;d much more readily do that than share all my passwords every which way. If we managed to make the interface easy to understand and use, and give it some level of contractual assurance around what sites are allowed to do with information they rely on (ha! users imposing click-through agreements on the sites they use! yeah, baby), maybe we&#8217;d have a true flipping around of who&#8217;s in charge.</p>
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		<title>By: John Cowan</title>
		<link>http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-81816</link>
		<dc:creator>John Cowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/archives/2007/07/17/account-linking-and-the-f-word/#comment-81816</guid>
		<description>I don't understand this.  How can a federated identity not require mutual trust?  If, for example, I am going to federate my identities with those of Sun Microsystems, and I am a paranoid weasel who doesn't want you to have access to my system, don't I have to trust Sun Microsystems that none of the identities other than "Eve Maler at Sun" that it claims to certify represent you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand this.  How can a federated identity not require mutual trust?  If, for example, I am going to federate my identities with those of Sun Microsystems, and I am a paranoid weasel who doesn&#8217;t want you to have access to my system, don&#8217;t I have to trust Sun Microsystems that none of the identities other than &#8220;Eve Maler at Sun&#8221; that it claims to certify represent you?</p>
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